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So Much For "Deep" Fields


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So Much For "Deep" Fields
-
Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Jun 6, 2007

July 3, 2008 2:20 pm

B&S,

Your observations of my post seem to me, very confusing and therefore your conclusions seem inaccurate.  I'll try to explain a bit better my point.

I don't understand how anyone can conclude that just because there are many different winners, that the fields are so strong and therefore deep and players are so equal.  Equal in what?  Ineptitude?  Inconsistency?   These are traits I see, not talent. 

Do you really mean in comparison to each other?  Then, you must agree that there is not much talent outside of Tiger on the tour right now.  Otherwise, we wouldn't all have the feeling, when Tiger plays, that he should win!  If there was a huge amount of talent, then they would dominate the older players with their length, accuracy and lack of fear putting.  These are things Tiger possessed at the outset of his career.  Pure talent!

If I saw more tournaments being decided by two or three players finishing in birdie, par, birdie fashion, then I would give your conclusion some credit.  What I do see are players folding coming down the stretch.  If not completely folding, then at least not doing anything but maintaining position.  This past weekend alludes to that fact. 

Perry: Birdie, par, par

Austin: Birdie, bogey, bogey

Watson: Birdie, par, par

Tway:  Birdie, par, par

Duke:  Birdie, par, par

Sixteen was a par five, and played as the easiest hole on the course, hence the birdies by all the golfers.  It was basically playing as a par four.  Why didn't we see one eagle from these players?  Why weren't there more birdies on seventeen?  Weren't these players confident about their game to go pin hunting?  I realize 18 played the hardest all week but were they all waiting for the others to faulter?  I'd like to think not but I feel this is true.  Nobody seized the moment and played for birdie to win.  I think they thought they were but just couldn't pull it off!  Their lack of talent didn't alllow them to accomplish the task at hand.

I'm not talking just about all the 20 somethings in general either.  I'm talking about a breakout player/players who will win consistently and actually give Tiger some pressure akin to Jack and Arnie.  (Read my last sentence about the consistency factor in my previous post.) 

I agree we will see a bunch of wins by the 20 somethings in the coming years.  That statement in itself is a paradox.  Of course this will happen by sheer numbers, they will share wins as a group.  What we won't see is anyone stepping up consistently and showcasing their talent.  Then doing it again, and again.  That is the key...TALENT.  Repeatable performance equals talent.  Talent is not a fluke or something which comes and goes.  It is not a hot streak, or all the other causes of these multiple player wins over the course of a year.  Talent wins five or six tourneys a year, the way Faldo, Nicklaus, Jones, Hogan did.  The way Tiger does.  (Or atleast a few tourneys and a Major.)  (I'm talking generally too.  I know they didn't win that many every year.)

You can't say that the tour is so chocked full of talent when one player dominates everyone else the way Tiger does.  I can conclude the ones being dominated are clones and not very good clones either.  Thus the high number of winners in Tiger's absence.  Think about it:  Kenny Perry @ 47 is a two time winner this year!!  That alone says little for the younger guys.

A tour is full of talent when there are three to five players who stand out and then the next 10 are close but just can't break the big boys more often.  They consistently are in the top 10 at tourney conclusion.  How many times do players perform one week and miss the cut the next week.  I see it all the time.  Talent would enable a player to make a good showing for four to eight weeks and win one or two during the course of a year.  Also rans are the ones who you hear from once, then never break through the top 20 again.

Don't let the sizes of the purses and what the 99th player earned fool you.  A player may play in 31 tournaments a year to earn that 99th spot and over $985,000 but that doesn't mean he has as much talent as that guy sitting above him at 100th who entered 19 tournaments and has $1,000,000+ in earnings, each with one win on the year.  In my opinion neither one had talent, just one lucky week and a few others where they maintained.  In fact the one who enterd 31 turneys had far less talent because of the $'s per tourney was pathetic in comparison.

Talent on the tour would get you 10 top 10's, 5 top 5's, and a few wins in 23 tournaments and over $8,500,000.  Talent wouldn't get you missed cuts!!!!  Look at last years earnings and see if anyone is close to the only one with talent today.  http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/2007/109.html

No, I don't think I can put any single player in those parenthesis with Tiger just yet.  The field is just too weak from #2 on down.

 


So Much For "Deep" Fields
-
Reputation:96
Level:Superstar
Since:Jan 21, 2008

July 3, 2008 10:04 pm
ImNo1now, thank you for your reply. My response is solely based upon your statement, fields are so full of talent campared to any other era.

From your response I surmise that you are very specifically referring to TALENT as the ability to BEAT Tiger Woods. If this is your assertion, I wholeheartedly agree :and a particular number would bear this out. When Tiger is in contention in a Major, the field shoots an avg score of 72.5 when he is NOT in contention the field avg is 69. A 3 shot difference. It would appear that the Golden Bear did not have this effect when one examines the manner in which he ended up in second place by men shooting amazing closing rounds & pulling off incredible shots. I will put forth a quote from Peter Oosterhuis as written by Daniel Wexler (Special to ESPN.com)

" the uniqueness of Wood's skills has been able to make it appear as if the chasing pack is not as significant as those big names of the past."

I have posted on these boards in the past that Tiger is one of those 100yr phenoms that render any comparisons with peers as moot. The only standard in terms of majors is of course Mr. Nicklaus. Time will tell (esp. the injury) but Tiger is certainly capable and on pace to totally rewrite golf history, which will put the competition in context. To this end I feel that we are very fortunate to witness the performances of Tiger!

In terms of talent, individually the young men of today are benefactors of technology that would make it very difficult to argue that shots of today would even be possible in previous eras. As you note the ability to take this advantage from the range to a tournament is sorely lacking. It is at this point that I make a distinction....these pros have talent & occasionally we do see very good shots & some very low scoring..that takes talent..winning is another matter. I recall a PGA event of maybe a couple of yrs ago where David Toms built a huge lead on Saturday & staggered home on Sun..so does he get credit for building a massive lead on Sat or was he just lucky on Sun?

In previous discussions regarding the talent pool on the PGA tour, BabyG made what I believe is a very salient point.....the CASH out there is just so CRAZY that the hunger, desire, will & GUTS REQUIRED TO WIN on a regular basis....is SIMPLY NOT THERE.

My point regarding different winners speaks to parity, you may have a point in that they are all mediocre especially when compared to Tiger, (this reminds me of the Seahawks Kings of a bum div) however you play with what U have & that is the PGA tour.

To make comparisons between different eras is difficult & I personally feel not all that useful..especially if you are looking at a once in your lifetime phenom . To suggest that there is little or no talent on the PGA tour is inaccurate....for if those guys were so bad..I would be out there.

Cheers



So Much For "Deep" Fields
-
Reputation:94
Level:All-Star
Since:Jun 6, 2007

July 4, 2008 4:19 pm
for if those guys were so bad..I would be out there.

Don't go getting ridiculous on me!!  They're not shooting over par at the local public links. 

I'm a firm believer, when people talk callously about being a "Pro Golfer", that if it was "easy" - then everyone who plays the game would try it.  Its not easy!

More dedication to account for their scores then talent.  Lets not forget that for them, it is their 8-10 hour a day job.  With a swing coach and caddie/psychologist. 

There are "no talent" Carpenters, Lawyers, Doctors, Sales Clerks, and Paper boys who still maintain their profession day in and day out.  In fact, I would say they are in the majority.  Same as PGA Touring Pros.